Callicles, Socrates, Plato

Callicles
Support:
“Won’t he ever stop talking rubbish? Tell me, Socrates, doesn’t it embarrass you to pick on people’s mere words at your age and to count it a godsend if someone uses the wrong expression by mistake?” (p.74)
“In my opinion, that’s what natural right is – for an individual who is better (that is, more clever) to rule over second-rate people and have more than them.” (p.75)
“That if a person has the means to live a life of sensual, self-indulgent freedom, there’s no better or happier state of existence; all the rest of it – the pretty words, the unnatural, man-made conventions – they’re all just pointless trumpery.” (p.79)
Evidence:
“I’m thinking of people who’ve applied their cleverness to politics and thought about how to run their community well. But cleverness is only part of it; they also have courage, which enables them to see their policies through to the finish without losing their nerve and giving up.” (p. 77)
“Under this wonderful regime of justice and self-discipline, how could they possibly be happy, when even if they did have political power they wouldn’t be able to use it to their friend’s advantage and their enemy’s disadvantage?” (p.79)
Callicles becomes very upset and impatient with Socrates throughout their conversation. Callicles thinks that Socrates is babbling on about nonsense and twisting his words in order to make himself look good in the argument. Callicles understands many of the statements made my Socrates, but does not find them evidence for his conclusions. Believing that people with great power should exert force upon others with no restraint, Callicles uses the example of a person born to inherit a kingdom or a dictator. He believes that power and pleasure bring happiness, and that self-discipline does not allow the person to experience the full effect of his or her authority.


Socrates
Support:
“Because the upshot is that good things aren’t the same as pleasant things, and bad things aren’t the same as unpleasant things either.” (p.88)
“As long as it is in a bad state (which is to say ignorant, self-indulging, immoral, and irreligious), we must prevent it from doing what it desires and have it keep strictly to a regimen which will make it better.” (p.101)
“It follows, Callicles, that because a self-disciplined person is just, brave, and religious, as we’ve explained, he’s a paradigm or goodness. Now, a good person is bound to do whatever he does well and successfully, and success brings fulfillment and happiness, whereas a bad man does badly and is therefore unhappy. Unhappiness, then, is the lot of someone who’s the opposite of self-disciplined – in other words, the kind of self-indulgent person you were championing.” (p.105)
Evidence:
“So it takes organization and order to make a house good, does it? And without these qualities any house is worthless?” (p.100)
“No, our helmsman knows that, once a person has gone bad, it’s better for him not to live, since he’s bound to live badly.” (p.112)
“Alright, has Callicles ever made any of his fellow citizens a better person? Is there anyone from here or elsewhere, from any walk of life – who was previously bad( that is unjust, self-indulgent, and thoughtless), but who has become, thanks to Callicles, a paragon of virtue?” (p.117)

Socrates wishes to impose his believes on other people because he wishes to make each man a more moral being. He carries on his conversation with Callicles (even after the point when Callicles refuses to speak) because he wishes to help live a more productive and meaningful life. He does not wish to use flattery and states that rhetoric should “only ever be used in the service of right”. He wants others to practice justice and virtue in order to better society. He uses odd analogies, but with the understanding of these analogies comes evidence of the necessity of being a ‘good person’.


I believe that Plato has a strong position that supports the use of evidence. He feels that evidence through daily life experiences and through common good analogies can help others understand in a more clear way. But, he also emphasizes the need of support. For example, Callicles (the rhetorician) tells Socrates (the philosopher) that he is “not entirely convinced” (p.114) and refers to his speech as “lowly little questions” (p.87). Also, during the beginning of their conversation, Callicles starts off by saying” You pretend that truth is your goal, but in actual fact you steer discussions towards this kind of ethical idea – ideas which are unsophisticated enough to have popular appeal, and which depend entirely on convention, not on nature” (p. 65). The power of support and analysis of statements by Socrates eventually persuades Callicles to see the opposite of what he says as true. I believe that Plato believes what Callicles is true, if and only if, the situations could be viewed without the application of morality, but his inner beliefs cause him to side with Plato. Callicles’s opposition to listen to Plato symbolizes the internal resistance Plato suffers with morality.